Two Buckets, Take 2

In our team debriefs recently, a number of our younger staff members have been remarking about a tool they picked up from Tammy Cook, who has been working at JFA since 1996. Tammy originally described her “Two Buckets” analogy in our September 2017 Impact Report (I encourage you to go back and read that story above). This Impact Report features a second “Two Buckets” installment from Tammy. She details a conversation that happened at Wichita State University in August, along with a summary of the impact of all of her conversations at that outreach event. - Steve Wagner, Executive Director

Impact Report, April 2022

By Tammy Cook, JFA Training Specialist

Tammy interacts with a student at Wichita State University in August 2021.

What a privilege it was to be back on the Wichita State University (WSU) campus on August 30 and 31 with the JFA team! I was excited to once again dialogue with college students face to face after a 17-month wait. I was ready to meet the challenge of helping them think through their views on abortion, and I prayed to see hearts and minds changed.

I introduced my Two Buckets analogy in 2017. It continues to be a very useful approach with pro-choice students that say, “I’m personally opposed to abortion, but I can’t tell others what to do.” I’m thrilled to share the impact that this analogy had on a WSU student named James.

James didn’t identify as pro-life or pro-choice. He said, “I’m in the middle.” I asked several questions to help him think through his views. I discovered that he believed that we become human at fertilization and that the unborn are human like us. He also agreed that the unborn deserved to be treated equally to born people and should be protected.

I then asked, “If you were to vote tomorrow on whether or not to keep abortion legal, how would you vote?” He thought long and hard and said, “I can still see both sides of the issue. I believe strongly in freedom of choice. I just don’t think I can take someone else’s rights away.” I shared my Two Buckets story to help him dig deeper into his thinking.

Tammy: Imagine that I have two buckets. The first bucket contains choices like murder, rape, stealing, and molestation. Do you agree that these choices are wrong and should not be legal?

James: Yes.

Tammy: The second bucket contains personal choices—for example, a favorite food like strawberries, choosing to go to college or not, dying your hair blue, etc. Do you agree that everyone should have the freedom to make these personal choices that do not harm others?

James: Yes.

Tammy: The significant difference between each of the two buckets is that one contains choices that harm people and the other bucket contains choices that do not harm people.

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Two Buckets (Illustration by Joanna Bai)

James: That makes a lot of sense. Many people think pro-life people want to take rights away, but I can see now that you’re actually wanting to add rights to people— to let them have plenty of rights as long as it doesn’t harm another human being...

I smiled and nodded in agreement.

James: What about rape? That’s a really tough situation.

Tammy: I agree.

I spent some time empathizing with women who’ve been raped and stated that we should punish rapists more fully. He agreed, and I continued:

Tammy: There are most likely students walking on this campus that were conceived from rape. Do you think they are any less valuable than those students who were not conceived in rape?

James: No.

I could see that this was a lightbulb moment for him.

Tammy: So, in which bucket does abortion belong?

James: [after a short pause] Abortion belongs in the bucket with murder.

I again nodded in agreement. We smiled at each other. Then I returned to my earlier question:

Tammy: If you were to vote tomorrow on whether or not to keep abortion legal, how would you vote?

James: I’d definitely vote no!

This was such a great moment. I paused to thank God for using me as an instrument to help James have a change of heart so significant that he is now willing even to vote to protect the unborn.

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Summary of My WSU Event Conversations

Tammy Cook

I saw God working in the hearts of many people. I had conversations with ten students over the course of two days at WSU (see one in the photo above). Here’s how I would categorize the students after asking a few questions to assess their views:

BEFORE: Undecided: 2 Pro-Choice: 5 Pro-Life: 3

I saw a complete shift in thinking by the end of the conversations with the two undecided students and two of the pro-choice students. All four said they would vote to make abortion illegal. I used the Two Buckets analogy in most of these conversations, and I believe it was integral in helping several of them, if not all, rethink their views.

AFTER: Undecided: 0 Pro-Choice: 3 Pro-Life: 7

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Note: This story was originally published in Tammy Cook’s September 2021 newsletter. You can read and share both this and the first “Two Buckets” story using the following webpage: www.jfaweb.org/two-buckets.

Responding to "I can't tell other's what to do."

In “Two Buckets,” Tammy Cook shares one concept that helps people who are reluctant to say abortion should not be legal because “I can’t tell others what to do.”  Through the conversation, which Tammy shares in vivid detail, she also models a number of other important conversational tools.

More Quick Links:

• Download the Printable Version

• See Another Approach to "I Can't Tell Others What to Do!"

• See More Dialogue Examples

Two Buckets

Impact Report, September 2017

Tammy Cook, JFA Training Specialist

In this Impact Report, JFA dialogue artist and trainer Tammy Cook shares an approach to conversation that she’s found to be very helpful for people who are pro-choice because they are reluctant to tell others what to do.  Her “two buckets” concept helped Dixon think differently about abortion, even though seeing abortion as a harm had already been covered in the conversation once.  That’s one of the valuable lessons here: Many times, people need multiple passes at a concept from different angles in order to “see” the truth.  In the conversation, you’ll also see Tammy modeling other conversational approaches we teach in our seminar, including trotting out a toddler, asking questions with an open heart, and using visual aids.  - Steve Wagner, Executive Director

The Lory Student Center Plaza was buzzing with students on a crisp morning in April.  It was the first of three days in which Justice For All displayed the Stop and Think Exhibit at Colorado State University.  Hundreds of students glanced up at the 12-foot display as they rushed to class.  A student named “Dixon” stopped to ask a question.

Dixon:  What is this all about?

Tammy:  We are an organization named Justice For All.  We were invited by the Students for Life club to discuss the topic of abortion with CSU students.  We want to ask students what they think and then have a healthy and respectful dialogue.  What do you think?

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JFA volunteer Bryan (above, second from right) talks with a student while Tammy (above, seated center) and another volunteer talk with Dixon.

Dixon:  I don’t think I have a say.  I don’t think we can tell other people what to do.

Tammy:  Thank you for sharing.  May I ask you a few questions to better understand your view?

Dixon:  Sure.

Tammy:  It sounds like it’s important to you to not tell others what they can or can’t do.  Do you mind sharing with me why that’s important to you?

Dixon:  Well, I don’t like people telling me what to do, and I think most people feel that way.

Tammy:  I agree with you – I think most people are sensitive to being told what they can or can’t do.

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Tammy talks with Dixon while using the JFA Exhibit Brochure as a visual aid.  To see more photos from JFA's April 2017 outreach event at Colorado State University, visit the gallery page.

Dixon:  [nodding head] Right.

Tammy:  Let me give you a scenario and ask what you think about it.  Imagine that a woman has a two-year-old son, and she’s having a really tough life.  She can’t afford to feed or take care of her son.  This might seem like an odd question, but bear with me: “Should she be allowed to kill her two-year-old son, if that’s what she wants to do?”

Dixon:  No, absolutely not.

Tammy:  I agree.  Why can’t she kill him?

Dixon:  Because he’s a child.

Tammy:  Right.  Would you agree that he’s a human being like the mother?

Dixon:  Yes.

Tammy:  So if the unborn child is a human being like the two-year-old, then wouldn’t it be just as wrong to kill the unborn child through abortion as it would for the mother to kill her two-year-old?

Dixon:  I’ve never thought about it that way.  I guess that could change things.  [He paused.]  But I still don’t think we can tell others what they can or can’t do.  Each person should have the freedom to make his own choices.

Is abortion merely a personal preference, or is it a choice that harms? (“Two Buckets” Illustration by Joanna Bai)

Tammy:  I agree with you that freedom is important.  Maybe it would help to break down our types of choices into two categories.  Let’s picture them in two separate buckets.  Bucket number one contains choices that are our personal preferences.  My “personal preference” bucket would contain two of my favorite foods, strawberries and broccoli.  People can choose to eat or not eat strawberries or broccoli, but that choice does not harm other people.  Bucket number two contains choices that cause serious harm like murder, stealing, and rape.  Would you agree that people shouldn’t have the choice to do any of those three things? *

Dixon:  Yes.

Tammy:  Why not?

Dixon:  Because they’re wrong.

Tammy:  I agree.  Each of these harms a human being, right?

Dixon:  Yes.

Tammy:  Do you see the difference?  Someone who chooses to eat or not eat broccoli does not harm another person, but someone who chooses to rape does harm another person, right? 

Dixon:  Yes.

Tammy:  And since abortion takes the life of a human being, would you agree that it belongs in the same bucket as rape and stealing?

Dixon:  Yes.  Wow!  This has been enlightening.  You’ve given me a lot to think about.  What if I hear of someone who is thinking about having an abortion?  What should I do?

Tammy:  Good question!  Let me show you an app on my phone that you can download.  [I showed him a video of an eight-week embryo using the “See Baby Pregnancy Guide” app for smartphones and tablets from the Endowment for Human Development (EHD).  Click here to download the app for free.]

Dixon:  Wow, that’s cool.

Dixon had to get to class, but before he left, I was also able to show him how to use the JFA Exhibit Brochure to help someone considering abortion.  He thanked me for all of the new information and appeared to have a genuine change of heart about abortion.

* I said this a bit differently on campus, and Dixon understood my meaning.  I've slightly changed the wording in this dialogue to more clearly illustrate my meaning in print.  Please take this portion of the dialogue to be capturing the gist of the conversation rather than the precise wording I used on campus.

September 2021 / April 2022 Update: See below for another story of a conversation in which Tammy used the “Two Buckets” analogy.

#Mindblown

By Rebecca Haschke, Training Specialist (November 2015, with Rebecca’s Introduction Edited Slightly for Clarity in Summer 2020)

Introduction: In election seasons, it is very common for people to talk about what the law should be on abortion. When that is the topic, it is also very common to hear some version of the following sentiment: “I’m pro-life, but I can’t tell other people what to do. Therefore, abortion should be legal.” JFA trainer Rebecca Haschke did a beautiful job of helping a young man reconsider this sentiment in a conversation she described in a recent letter entitled “#Mindblown” (below). In this man’s case, he felt that because he had religious reasons for his point of view on abortion, he was disqualified from making a case that abortion should not be legal. I think you’ll be encouraged to see how this young man came to see things differently in just minutes. In the process, you’ll witness Rebecca’s manner, and you’ll learn a sequence of questions you can ask when you confront this sort of concern in conversations with friends and neighbors. - Steve Wagner, Executive Director (April 2016 Impact Report)

I met “Brian” at the University of Georgia-Athens. He confidently stated he was pro-life. I mentioned this conversation briefly in my March newsletter earlier this year, "Give Thanks In All Circumstances," because of what Brian said next. He shared that he was pro-life and a Christian, but that he felt he could not “force his beliefs on others.”

This response is not an unusual one. I’ve heard it many times. Hearing it as often as I do can be discouraging, which is why I took the time in March to reflect on the need to give thanks in all circumstances, not just the circumstances that seem uplifting and enjoyable.

Rebecca Haschke interacts with a student at the University of Georgia at Athens in September 2015.

The conversation with Brian didn’t end there, though. Look at what happened: 

Brian: I’m pro-life.

Becca (me): Brian, what does that mean for you? Do you think abortion should be illegal?

Brian: No, we can’t force our beliefs on others.  I’m pro-life because I’m a Christian, but legally enforcing my stance on abortion would push my religion on people who don’t believe the same as me.

Becca: Brian, you mentioned that it is because you are a Christian that you are pro-life.  Do your Christian beliefs give you reasons for thinking that abortion is wrong?

Brian: Of course.  Human life is sacred.  God created those human lives, they are valuable, and we should not kill them.

Becca: I agree with those statements.  From what you just said it seems that you may believe the unborn are human beings biologically.  Is that true?

Brian: Yeah, absolutely.

Becca: Human beings like you and me?

Brian: Yes.

Becca: When do you believe that the unborn become biological human beings like you and me?

Brian: [He walked up to the Justice For All Exhibit and pointed at a picture of fertilization.] From the very beginning.  Conception.

Becca: Okay.  Brian, can you explain to me why you think that you would be pushing your religious beliefs on others if you supported laws that would protect unborn human beings from being killed through abortion?

Brian: Well, women have a lot of difficult choices that they have to make in their lives.  Choice is an important thing.  If we make a law against abortion, we are taking away their right to that choice.  That’s like pushing my views on them.  They no longer would have the right to choose.

Becca: That’s true.  The choice to kill their children in utero would no longer be granted to women.  I’m curious.  Do you think that it is ever right for the government to make a law that takes away a “choice”?

Brian: Uh…no?

Becca: Well, do you agree that the laws that make it illegal to walk onto this campus and kill college students are good laws?

Brian: Of course.

Becca: I agree.  However, when enforcing that law, the government is taking away particular choices of other people.  What about laws prohibiting beating children in the privacy of your own home?  Are those good laws?

Brian: Yes, yes.  Those are good laws.

Becca: What if it is just your religion that makes you think that it is wrong to beat children?  Should you have the right to impose and force your religious beliefs on me?

Brian: Yes, because those laws protect others from being harmed.  That’s not just a religious belief.  It is a law protecting human rights.

Becca: So we can agree that laws which restrict “choice” in order to protect human lives are good, despite the fact that your support of those laws might be based on religious beliefs?  It’s possible that our religious beliefs may guide us to the same conclusion as those who don’t share those beliefs—the conclusion that all human lives should be protected.  That wouldn’t be forcing our religion on others, but simply protecting human rights.  Can we agree on that?

Brian: Yes, we can.

Becca: If it is important for us to protect human life and if the unborn are just as human and valuable as you and me, shouldn’t they also be granted that same protection under the law?

Brian: Wow.  Yeah, I guess.  I just have always thought that would be imposing my beliefs on others.

Becca: [I then pointed to pictures in the JFA Exhibit Brochure depicting various genocides throughout history.]  Brian, do you think that people who were not victims of the injustices shown in these pictures had an obligation to stand up for those who were being killed?

Brian: Yes.

Becca: I’m going to make a proposal.  Brian, not only is it right for you to believe that abortion should be illegal because it takes the life of a human being; but actually—as a person who has the knowledge that 1) the unborn is a human being and 2) over a million are killed each year in the country in which you reside—you have an obligation to speak up for those humans who are being killed.

(silent pause)

Brian: #MindBlown [hashtag: Mind Blown].

“It was as if he had finally been given permission to defend the lives of innocent human beings that he understood were valuable, permission to voice his opinion without shame. Relief and amazement radiated from his eyes.”

Brian’s final response took me by surprise.  From the start of our conversation he seemed so confident in his belief that it is wrong to enforce laws telling others what they can and cannot do.  Until that final moment in our conversation, the questions I had asked him did not seem to be creating any change of mind or heart.  When he looked at me and said, “#MindBlown,” his entire demeanor changed.  It was as if he had finally been given permission to defend the lives of innocent human beings that he understood were valuable, permission to voice his opinion without shame.  Relief and amazement radiated from his eyes.

The culture in which we live is permeated with the belief and mantra that we cannot tell others what to do.  Thank you for your support that not only helps us challenge the beliefs of those who do not think the unborn are valuable human beings, but also helps us encourage the students who recognize the unborn are valuable, but do not feel they have the right to share that belief with others.

Note: Members of JFA’s training team interacted with the topic of Rebecca’s letter recently. You can read some of their reflections and post your own at the JFA blog.