Recent Campus Conversations

April 2023 Impact Report

In this Impact Report compiled by Rebekah Dyer, we share pictures from recent events, along with brief conversation reflections from Rebekah and two other JFA trainers, Kaitlyn and Andrea. In January, February, and March, we conducted outreach on 17 days at nine campuses in six states: CSU Fullerton (CA), Palomar College (CA), Univ. of Arizona (AZ), Univ. of Texas at Austin (TX), Texas State (TX), Univ. of Cincinnati (OH), Univ. of Texas at San Antonio (TX), Wichita State (KS), and Newman Univ. (KS). Thank you for partnering with us financially and for praying for our work. -- Steve Wagner, Executive Director

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CSU Fullerton (CA) — Jan. 2023 — Jon (left) and Rebekah (right) interact with students during our first outreach event of the year.

Experiencing the Unexpected

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Univ. of Arizona (AZ) — Feb. 2023 — Paul (blue sweatshirt) talks to students near the JFA poll table. (Also visible in background: Kristina and Rebekah)

“Have you had a lot of conversations about abortion before, and, if so, how have they gone for you?” I often ask this question on campus, and people’s answers give me important background information about their experiences talking about abortion. At the University of New Mexico, I met two students who were reluctant to talk to me because they had had such bad experiences voicing their opinions in the past. One young woman told me she felt like she was shaking at some point in our conversation. Another student told me he had never heard a good argument for the pro-life position, and he was only familiar with people yelling and holding signs. I asked him if he’d be open to hearing a good argument and when he said yes, I presented the equal rights argument. At the end of our conversations, both of these students thanked me for the conversation and how I treated them.

I was grateful for the opportunity to give these students a good experience talking about abortion. I hope it will help them to be more open to the next person God places in their path to continue the dialogue. Conversations about abortion are important because people inside and outside the womb matter so much. – Rebekah Dyer

Loving Those Who Differ

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Univ. of Texas at San Antonio (TX) — Feb. 2023 — Gavin (yellow) logged lots of conversations during eight days of JFA outreach from January to March. You can join us for a mission trip, too: www.jfaweb.org/mission-trips.

While the JFA team was doing outreach at Texas State in San Marcos, a young man I’ll call Mark stopped by. Mark was reserved and quiet. When I asked him if he had thoughts about abortion he said he didn’t want to get into it. I nodded and began asking questions about his life to show him I cared. I asked what he was studying and where he was from, if he had a community on campus, and what his dreams were for the future. Through these questions I learned that he is intelligent and thoughtful but very shy and deeply lonely. I also gained his trust. Eventually we did begin discussing abortion. We also talked for a long time about Christianity and the gospel. Early in our conversation Mark seemed tentative, and I thought he might leave at any moment, but as I listened and asked questions he relaxed, and we talked for over two hours. It became clear that he was starved for conversation and compassion. Many of us struggle to start conversations because we assume people don’t want to have this kind of conversation. Over and over I have found the opposite to be true. Like Mark, many people in our culture are deeply lonely and would love to have a real conversation with someone who cares. – Kaitlyn Donihue

An Open Heart Towards the Gospel

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Univ. of Cincinnati (OH) — Feb. 2023 — Mary (grey, facing away from camera) and Kaitlyn (right) engage students at our outreach event in Cincinnati.

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Univ. of New Mexico (NM) — Mar. 2023 — JFA trainers Jeremy (left, red) and Andrea (center) interact with students in Albuquerque.

At the University of New Mexico outreach, Isaac was standing at our kiosk looking at the images of the unborn. I approached him and asked if he had any thoughts about abortion. Isaac said he believed that abortion should be legal, especially when a child is not wanted. I asked him questions, and we talked through the “Trot out the Toddler” analogy, as well as evidence from biology showing that the unborn is a human being. I then shared images of abortion with him. As the conversation progressed, Isaac agreed that the unborn are living human beings. I challenged him by saying, “We just agreed that the unborn are living human beings, so if that is true, would you agree the unborn deserves equal rights, at least in the basic right to life?” Indicating that his heart and mind were changing, he responded, “Yes, I would agree with that.” We then proceeded to have an extensive conversation about his spiritual beliefs. I had the opportunity to share the hope of the gospel with him, and I gave him the gospel of John. He was excited to read it and told me that he was going to journal about it afterwards. – Andrea Thenhaus

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Do you receive email updates from JFA’s prayer team coordinator, Mary Biegler, with specific prayer requests for upcoming events? See www.jfaweb.org/pray to sign up.

Father, Please Give Me a Glimpse

March 2023 Impact Report

The Justice For All team is on a mission to train Christians to change hearts and minds about abortion, and along the way, we use the conversations we create to challenge people to take Jesus Christ and the Christian worldview more seriously. While our trainers report progress in some conversations, the progress of other conversations many times remains hidden.

When I read the reflection below from Kaitlyn Donihue, JFA’s trainer based in Ohio, I wanted to share it with you. It represents a sweet gift from God in giving her a glimpse of how He is using JFA’s work. May this spur us on to continue to be faithful in the work He has given us to do. And let us be thankful both when He does not allow us to see what He is doing and when He does. -Steve Wagner, Executive Director

Have you ever opened a novel to the middle, read a chapter, and put it down again? Neither have I, but that is what outreach often feels like. Through our conversations with students, we get a glimpse into their stories and hopefully have the opportunity to impact their lives, but it is a brief glimpse, and usually we don’t get to see how their stories play out. We don’t know whether our words made a difference or not. We don’t find out whether the story ends in joy or tragedy.

Not knowing the ending is hard. I often leave campus with a heavy heart because I care about the students with whom I talked but don’t know what will happen to them, and I can’t do anything more for them.

Last month as I got ready for our trip to Texas, I struggled with whether we are doing any good. I asked God to give me a glimpse of how He is using our work, and He graciously answered that prayer.

Halfway through our first day of outreach, our whole team was hot and tired. Several students were standing by the free speech board reading the comments. I walked over to one and asked him whether he had any thoughts about abortion. He barely gave me a glance as he said, “Not really.” “Okay,” I said. “Do you think it should be legal or illegal or somewhere in between?” “I don’t really care,” he said and walked away.

I stared after him for a minute feeling discouraged. Then I turned to another student who was standing nearby. “Do you have thoughts on the issue of abortion?” I asked him. I noted as I did that he was wearing a T-shirt that said, “Unashamed Follower of Jesus.”

“Yeah,” he said, “I think abortion is wrong. It kills a human being.”

“I agree with you. I’m Kaitlyn by the way.”

“I’m Sam,” he said. “I work with a campus student ministry, and I have been discipling a young man. Last semester he wasn’t following Christ, and he was pro-choice, but he talked to you guys when you were here before and that conversation was really significant to him. He has since become pro-life and made a full commitment to follow Christ because of that conversation. I wanted to come by and tell you that. God is using you guys. Thank you for what you are doing.”

“He has since become pro-life and made a full commitment to follow Christ because of that conversation.”

I was overwhelmed by the goodness of God. Because of His great love, He answered my prayer and gave me just a glimpse into what He is doing in the life of one student.

Hearing about this student was such a gift. It gives me courage to believe that God is at work in the lives of the other students with whom we talk even if we never get to see the ending of their stories.

As our outreach in Texas drew to a close, I began praying a new prayer that I have prayed many times since: “Thank you, Father, that though these students may now be out of my reach, they are not out of Yours.”

One Person at a Time

In this Impact Report, we share the names and pictures of some of the people with whom our team interacted in 2022. Please join us in praying that God will take the seeds we planted and change the world, one person at a time. Pray each person would love and protect the children in their care. Pray for healing from past hurts, and pray each heart would become open to God.

Would you join us in committing to pray for each of these people in the coming months?

You can use the images below (7 total) to pray through the list from your phone or other device with us this year?

Or, you can download, print, and post this list somewhere in your home to remind you to pray.

Click on the image or click here to download a pdf (both pages included) you can print and post in your home to remind you to pray with us.

Click on the image or click here to download a pdf (both pages included) you can print and post in your home to remind you to pray with us.

To view more pictures and read recent stories of conversations, see other recent posts on the JFA blog.

There’s still time to give a year-end gift to help Justice For All train many Christians to reach one person at a time in 2023. Thank you for supporting our team and for praying along with us.

Picture: How Two Minds Changed

November 2022 Impact Report

Before they step foot on campus, our interns and volunteers are trained to be faithful to God as his ambassadors, to leave the results of each conversation to him, and to be ready to not always see impact. Still, we hope their first experience can include some glimpses of change in the way people think, feel, and act regarding abortion. To support them, our veteran team members make it their highest priority to serve as mentors at our outreach events. In this Impact Report, JFA intern Hannah Cook shares the story of her first outreach day in August. Along the way, you’ll see the important role JFA trainers Mary and Tammy played in helping Hannah experience success. Thank you for praying for and supporting the work of our trainers, volunteers, and interns. God is changing the world through them, one conversation at a time. (See the JFA Blog for other recent stories of impact.) - Steve Wagner, Executive Director

I wanted to run away.

We had just about finished setting up our outreach displays at Wichita State University (WSU) when a girl gestured to our “Should Abortion Remain Legal?” poll table and said, “What are you guys doing here? I thought we already voted on this.” She was referring to the “Value Them Both” Amendment that had been soundly defeated in the Kansas Primary Election four weeks earlier. My foggy brain immediately snapped to attention as I sensed the edge in her voice. She was clearly irritated. I couldn’t tell if her condescending smile was a half-hearted attempt at cordiality or simply a way of insulting us further. In any case, I could tell that she was ready for a fight. One wrong word from us, and she would pounce. I felt adrenaline rush through my body as my heart began pounding. I looked to Mary Biegler who was standing next to me, hoping she would know what to say. I was thankful that she did.

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Hannah (right) discusses the images in the JFA brochure with a student at Oklahoma State University in October 2022.

As Mary calmly began explaining that we were aiming to have productive conversations about abortion, I relaxed a little, hoping that the girl would have an open heart and mind. She did not. She questioned and challenged Mary at every turn, refusing to give an inch. At this point a guy walked up and joined the conversation. He listened for a few minutes, echoed the girl’s sentiments, and added his own challenges. We talked about bodily rights, the question of rape, and the central question, “What is the unborn?” No matter what we said, though, it was like trying to reason with brick walls. Nothing was getting through. Our arguments were cast aside and rejected. A mix of frustration, discouragement, and hopelessness swirled through me as I tried to keep up with the onslaught of objections being hurled at us. This was nothing like the life-changing encounters I had been reading about all week from other JFA interns and trainers. What happened to the nice open-minded discussions that left me feeling warm and fuzzy inside? At that moment, I wanted to flee the scene, drive the 19 hours back to my peaceful hometown in Idaho, and never talk to another pro-choice person again.

Well, it turned out that I was able to escape – not back to Idaho but at least out of that conversation. Someone asked for directions, and I stepped away to help her. A little while later, I noticed three guys standing nearby listening to a conversation at the outreach. They seemed interested in the topic, so I asked if they had any thoughts about abortion. They told me that they were from Zimbabwe and that abortion really isn’t talked about there. Their names were Chimdi, Denzel, and Bryan.

Denzel and Bryan said they were personally pro-life but that abortion should still be legal. Chimdi didn’t think it should be legal. When I asked Denzel and Bryan if they thought there should be any restrictions on abortion, Bryan told me that he thought the cut-off should be five months gestation. “Why did you pick that specific point?” I asked. He replied, “Because by then they have arms and legs and everything.”

When I heard this, I knew that he needed to see pictures of fetal development because the features he was describing appear so much earlier than five months. When I showed Bryan and the others that arms and legs are clearly present at seven weeks post-fertilization, they were all shocked. Immediately Bryan switched his cut-off point to three months gestation. I was amazed at such quick progress. It showed me the power of pictures. We talked some more, and I trotted out the toddler to help us focus on the question, “What is the unborn?” Even so, they still held pretty firmly to the belief that a woman should have a right to choose. Meanwhile, Tammy Cook had come up and was listening to our conversation. She later told me that she was there to be a support, and she wasn’t planning to say anything unless I asked her.

The conversation had been productive so far, but I wasn’t sure how to proceed. I turned to Tammy and asked what she thought. She asked all of us to imagine two buckets filled with different choices. The first bucket contains personal preferences like which foods you eat, what college you attend, and with whom you choose to spend time. The second bucket contains choices that harm people – choices like rape, child abuse, and murder. She noted that there should be legal restrictions on the second bucket of choices because those particular choices harm other human beings. She then asked which bucket abortion belonged in. They all said that it belonged in the second bucket. I was amazed and delighted – even more progress! (For more about the “Two Buckets” analogy, see www.jfaweb.org/two-buckets.)

Tammy’s “Two Buckets” analogy had definitely put us on the right track, but Bryan was still resistant. He said that the reason people don’t care about abortion in the same way that they would care about a toddler being killed is because they can’t see abortion. He almost said it in a way that justified his own position about abortion – suggesting that he too thought it was okay because he couldn’t see it. I suddenly knew what I needed to say. I asked the three of them if they had heard about Emmett Till, the black boy who was murdered for allegedly “whistling at a white woman” in the South in the 1950’s. I was a little surprised when they nodded and said that yes, they knew of him. (For a good introduction to the story, watch the trailer of the newly-released movie, Till.) After briefly recapping the story, I was able to explain that when Emmett’s mother physically opened the casket of her maimed and disfigured son, she metaphorically opened the casket on racism, and the whole world saw racism for the evil and horrific thing that it was. No longer was racism hidden from public view – it was on full display and could not so easily be denied or minimized. Then I said, “I actually have some pictures of the results of abortion with me. Are you willing to look at them?” Denzel was the first to view the brochure, followed by Chimdi. Bryan refused to look, but the connection between Emmett Till and abortion was sinking in.

The next thing I knew they were all agreeing that abortion should not be legal at any point. I was overjoyed. One conversation had resulted in a complete change of heart and mind for these students. Regardless of whether people change their mind, it’s still worthwhile to have conversations with them, but it is such a gift when we do get to see change take place. It was a great encouragement as I continued having conversations with other students who were not so quick to change.

I also realize that if I had chosen to run away after that initial conversation, I never would have received the blessing of witnessing such a profound transformation of heart and mind in Denzel and Bryan. I thank God for helping me to continue to be faithful even in the midst of discouragement.

– Hannah Cook, for the JFA Team

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Make Your Own Impact by Giving a Year-End Gift

As you consider your year-end giving, please consider giving generously to JFA to help us train more Christians to change more hearts and minds about abortion in 2023. With various state ballot initiatives strengthening abortion rights following the Supreme Court’s Dobbs decision, it’s especially important that we continue our work of changing hearts and minds, one person at a time. Even in the states where unborn children now have legal protection, we see hearts and minds wavering, especially when no one has come alongside to help each person think things through. We’re encouraged, though, because we know that one person can change the world. Each person we train and each person we engage in dialogue can change the world for an unborn child, and each child allowed to live can in turn change the world for others. Above all these, we believe God is the one who really changes minds, heals hearts, and changes the world. Please partner with us as we seek to humbly serve our great God in this work in 2023. You can give online or send a check using the information on our “Mail a Gift” page. Learn more about JFA’s vision and needs for 2023 at our “Invest in JFA” page. Or, call me directly at 316-683-6426 to discuss! - Steve Wagner, Executive Director

No Regrets

Impact Report - October 2022

For most people, talking about moral or spiritual matters with other people is daunting when we have no knowledge of how they might respond. But what about when people have shown us that their views definitely conflict with ours? Even worse, what if someone has demonstrated he or she is close-minded or has even made mocking comments about the pro-life position or Christianity or people who believe in Jesus? We don’t want to “cast our pearls before swine” so should we step into the conversation even if we have reasons to believe it won’t be fruitful? In this Impact Report, JFA dialogue artist Andrea Thenhaus describes a recent conversation that illustrates why our answer to this question is usually “Yes!” She learned that we can have misconceptions about people and that conversations can go far better than we predicted. -Steve Wagner, Executive Director

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Towards the end of the second day of our Texas State University outreach this month, a group of four people started looking at the free speech board. I stood nearby for a few minutes listening. They were making inappropriate and crass remarks about the comments they were reading.

Andrea (right) interacts with a student at Fort Lewis College in Durango, CO in April 2022.

At first, I did not want to talk with these students. What if they decided to direct their rude comments toward me? I had several excellent conversations that day, and I did not want to end on a discouraging note.

Then I decided I wanted to finish the day having no regrets. If they did not want to engage, or if the conversation did not go well, at least I would know I had done my part by trying to dialogue with them.

I asked them if they had any thoughts on the issue of abortion. They started by saying that they are pro-choice and then began sharing with me why they thought abortion should be legal. Christy, a member of the Students For Life club on campus, asked if she could join the conversation. Our conversation went something like this:

Sophia: I have seen so much suffering in this world. I just want to prevent kids from having to experience suffering. I think abortion should be legal for that reason. It would be more compassionate to end the life of the unborn when they are not conscious or aware of what is going on.

Jessica: There are many children suffering in foster care. We need to change the foster care system if abortion is going to be illegal.

Christy: Can I ask you a question? Imagine that there is a group of kids in the foster care system. Would it be okay to kill them to help relieve the suffering they are experiencing?

They agreed that would not be right, but then they noted differences between these kids and the unborn:

Jessica: At that point they are already in this world.

Sophia: The unborn is different, and I just want to prevent the child from experiencing pain and suffering.

Jessica: I have two siblings who have been in the foster care system. It was very hard on them.

In that moment, I sensed that they had a story to share. I realized that I needed to just listen.

Sophia: I have had a hard life. Many people in my life have died. Yesterday, my friend told me that her mom recently passed away after she had been missing. I also attended a school where we were frequently on lockdowns due to shootings. At first it was terrifying to attend school every day knowing that I might get shot. I eventually stopped fearing death and accepted that I could die. As the conversation continued, both of these young women expressed that they don’t have hope.

Andrea: Thank you for sharing. Everyone has a story, and it is important to listen to one another. I want people to know that I care about them. You never know what someone is going through or has gone through in their life.

Sophia: I can tell that you care.

She started to tear up, and I reaffirmed my concern for her. After a few minutes, it seemed helpful to note why we were on campus and how that related to listening to individual stories.

Andrea: JFA is a pro-life organization. The heart behind our outreach is to create healthy and productive dialogue about abortion. That means it’s important to hear where each person is coming from.

Sophia: I agree that it is important to talk about this issue. We can bring both sides to the table and listen to each other.

Andrea: This is the way I look at it: If the unborn are living human beings like you and me, then abortion is taking a life. I think we need to protect the unborn. If the unborn are not human beings, then it does not matter if someone gets an abortion. You mentioned earlier that abortion is a choice. I think choice is good as long as it does not harm another human being. This is why I am pro-life, but I think that pro-life should not end at birth.

They looked at each other and then Sophia exclaimed,

Sophia: I can’t believe you just said that! You are the first person I have heard say that pro-life should not end at birth. Wow! This has been a groundbreaking conversation.

As we continued talking, my heart ached for them and their lack of hope. I felt prompted to share the gospel because I know that true hope is only found in Jesus Christ. I asked a question to begin: “What gives you hope?”

We then launched into a conversation in which I was able to share in detail what Christ has done for us. Finally I said, “I share all this with you because I care about you. There is not much hope in this world, but I find my hope in Jesus. I am confident that one day I’ll go to heaven, and that gives me hope!”

Throughout our conversation, and especially during our discussion of spiritual things, Sophia and Jessica were exceptionally receptive and appreciative.

As the conversation came to a close, I thanked them for taking the time to talk. They replied, “No. Thank you. We greatly appreciated this conversation and all that you shared. So thank you!”

I thank God for allowing me to see a window into His work in their hearts. I did leave this conversation with no regrets, and I was grateful for their remarkable shift in attitude. I am reminded that not all our interactions will go like this one. Often, we do not get to see the fruit of our labor. No matter the outcome, we can focus on being faithful to plant seeds and let God do the rest. I pray that you take the opportunities God gives you in the coming weeks so you also can say, “I have no regrets” and give thanks to Him for whatever results He brings.

Attitude Can Make or Break the Conversation

Recently, veteran JFA trainer Rebecca Hotovy found an unsent email in her drafts folder. It contained a nearly complete newsletter detailing a conversation from years back. I was so taken with it, I wanted to share it with you. (Rebecca still coaches other JFA speakers part-time during brief breaks from her full-time job as mom to two precious boys.)

We know this story definitely happened at the University of Oklahoma, and we think it happened around 2015. Whatever the date, the story beautifully illustrates the power of JFA’s dialogue approach, the power of a few carefully crafted questions asked with an open heart, and the way in which our attitude has the power to make or break a conversation. - Steve Wagner, Executive Director

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Impact Report, June 2022

Rebecca Hotovy, JFA Trainer Certification Coach and Trainer Emeritus

 Several years ago at the University of Oklahoma (OU), as I stood next to the large exhibit, a young man approached me. I’ll call him Chris. Confident that abortion was a woman’s right, Chris started to explain why he felt abortion should remain legal. Several feet from me stood another man, likely twenty to thirty years older than Chris. Although this older man was not a volunteer with Justice For All, he held a pro-life view. He was close enough to hear my conversation with Chris, and as the conversation continued, he listened in.

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Rebecca (center) interacts with an OU student in 2015 near a small version of the JFA Exhibit.

In the first few minutes of that discussion, I took time to figure out the reasoning behind Chris’s belief that abortion should remain legal. Without first understanding why Chris held his view or how he came to the conclusion that abortion should remain legal, I knew I wouldn’t be able help him see errors in his reasoning. I was also aware that blatantly pointing out any errors may upset him enough that he would end the conversation. If he didn’t end the conversation but he stayed and continued talking, it would likely make him put up barriers of self-defense that would prevent him from wanting to listen to the ideas being presented, even if he was physically present and talking. Sadly, I’ve seen this happen many times – two people begin to dialogue about a controversial subject, quickly start defending their own positions, and turn a conversation into two monologues because they feel offended. If they feel offended for whatever reason, they may hear words coming from the other person’s mouth, but they don’t listen to the meaning of the message of those words.

In my conversation with Chris, over time it became clear that he did not believe the unborn was biologically human. When I felt I had built a good rapport with him, I allowed our conversation to take a turn. I started asking questions not just to discover his reasoning in defense of legal abortion but also to challenge that reasoning. At this point in the conversation I knew he would welcome the challenge because he could see that I didn’t desire to push my agenda down his throat. The challenge questions I asked were exactly the ones we train participants to ask when they attend the Abortion: From Debate to Dialogue seminar. I said something like:

Rebecca: Chris, do you mean that you don’t believe the unborn is biologically a human being or that the unborn isn’t a human being that deserves the same rights as you and I do?

Chris: Oh, it’s not biologically a human being at all. It’s just a clump of cells in those early stages.

Rebecca: If I could offer evidence for why the unborn is a human being, would you mind?

Chris: Sure. Go ahead.

Rebecca: If the unborn is growing, isn’t it alive?

Chris: [pausing and then slowly nodding his head] Yeah, sure I can agree with that.

Rebecca: If the unborn has human parents, isn’t it human?

Chris: [pausing and pondering the question with a slight grin on his face] Yes.

It was his answer to my third question, though, that threw me for a loop.

Rebecca: And living human beings, like you and me, are valuable, aren’t they?

Chris: Oh my gosh. Yes.

There was another moment of silence as he continued to ponder the questions I had just asked that laid out a defense for the humanity of the unborn. We stood in silence for a while longer. Then he said something like:

Chris: Wow, okay, so I need to think through this more.

This was so unexpected to me because most students I talk to do not agree with each of these questions. They have all sorts of creative ideas to share, such as “Well, fire grows, and it’s not alive” or “Yeah, well a clump of cells might be alive and have human DNA, but that doesn’t mean it is a human being...Are tumors human beings?” or “Sperm are alive and have human DNA. Are all sperm valuable, too?”

Chris didn’t have any retorts like these. He simply agreed that the unborn was a human being.

Just as I thought the conversation was going really well, it took a turn for the worse. The pro-life man who had been listening in stepped close enough to us to join the conversation, turned to Chris, and snootily remarked, “She got ya! Didn’t she‽”

My heart dropped to my stomach. I had taken such care not to make Chris feel like I was attacking his position and to make him feel comfortable sharing his thoughts with me, and in less than three seconds someone who claimed to be pro-life obliterated all my efforts. Chris was as shocked as I was. His face showed it. He also became really nervous and started stumbling over his words.

One would think that I would easily become frustrated with people who hold beliefs against the dignity and sanctity of human life, but in this instance I became frustrated instead with this person who was like-minded to me in certain ways but didn’t realize the importance of treating the human standing in front of us with respect. Fortunately, I was able to jump back into the conversation, regain a good rapport with Chris, direct the conversation away from the “got ya” remark, and help him feel less nervous.

In hindsight, I now take another step back and realize that the art of learning to dialogue is a journey for everyone – the pro-life advocate and the pro-choice advocate alike. Prior to my training and work with Justice For All, if I had been that pro-life person standing there listening in on the conversation, I may have made a similar remark. Early on I didn’t understand that the way I shared the truth about the unborn could actually affect whether that truth helped pro-choice advocates change their minds. Thank you, Justice For All, for your gift of teaching me the beauty of dialoguing in love!

Note: Yes, that’s an intentional interrobang in the fourth from the last paragraph. Learn more about this controversial punctuation mark through this engaging podcast episode from 99 Percent Invisible.

Two Buckets, Take 2

In our team debriefs recently, a number of our younger staff members have been remarking about a tool they picked up from Tammy Cook, who has been working at JFA since 1996. Tammy originally described her “Two Buckets” analogy in our September 2017 Impact Report (I encourage you to go back and read that story above). This Impact Report features a second “Two Buckets” installment from Tammy. She details a conversation that happened at Wichita State University in August, along with a summary of the impact of all of her conversations at that outreach event. - Steve Wagner, Executive Director

Impact Report, April 2022

By Tammy Cook, JFA Training Specialist

Tammy interacts with a student at Wichita State University in August 2021.

What a privilege it was to be back on the Wichita State University (WSU) campus on August 30 and 31 with the JFA team! I was excited to once again dialogue with college students face to face after a 17-month wait. I was ready to meet the challenge of helping them think through their views on abortion, and I prayed to see hearts and minds changed.

I introduced my Two Buckets analogy in 2017. It continues to be a very useful approach with pro-choice students that say, “I’m personally opposed to abortion, but I can’t tell others what to do.” I’m thrilled to share the impact that this analogy had on a WSU student named James.

James didn’t identify as pro-life or pro-choice. He said, “I’m in the middle.” I asked several questions to help him think through his views. I discovered that he believed that we become human at fertilization and that the unborn are human like us. He also agreed that the unborn deserved to be treated equally to born people and should be protected.

I then asked, “If you were to vote tomorrow on whether or not to keep abortion legal, how would you vote?” He thought long and hard and said, “I can still see both sides of the issue. I believe strongly in freedom of choice. I just don’t think I can take someone else’s rights away.” I shared my Two Buckets story to help him dig deeper into his thinking.

Tammy: Imagine that I have two buckets. The first bucket contains choices like murder, rape, stealing, and molestation. Do you agree that these choices are wrong and should not be legal?

James: Yes.

Tammy: The second bucket contains personal choices—for example, a favorite food like strawberries, choosing to go to college or not, dying your hair blue, etc. Do you agree that everyone should have the freedom to make these personal choices that do not harm others?

James: Yes.

Tammy: The significant difference between each of the two buckets is that one contains choices that harm people and the other bucket contains choices that do not harm people.

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Two Buckets (Illustration by Joanna Bai)

James: That makes a lot of sense. Many people think pro-life people want to take rights away, but I can see now that you’re actually wanting to add rights to people— to let them have plenty of rights as long as it doesn’t harm another human being...

I smiled and nodded in agreement.

James: What about rape? That’s a really tough situation.

Tammy: I agree.

I spent some time empathizing with women who’ve been raped and stated that we should punish rapists more fully. He agreed, and I continued:

Tammy: There are most likely students walking on this campus that were conceived from rape. Do you think they are any less valuable than those students who were not conceived in rape?

James: No.

I could see that this was a lightbulb moment for him.

Tammy: So, in which bucket does abortion belong?

James: [after a short pause] Abortion belongs in the bucket with murder.

I again nodded in agreement. We smiled at each other. Then I returned to my earlier question:

Tammy: If you were to vote tomorrow on whether or not to keep abortion legal, how would you vote?

James: I’d definitely vote no!

This was such a great moment. I paused to thank God for using me as an instrument to help James have a change of heart so significant that he is now willing even to vote to protect the unborn.

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Summary of My WSU Event Conversations

Tammy Cook

I saw God working in the hearts of many people. I had conversations with ten students over the course of two days at WSU (see one in the photo above). Here’s how I would categorize the students after asking a few questions to assess their views:

BEFORE: Undecided: 2 Pro-Choice: 5 Pro-Life: 3

I saw a complete shift in thinking by the end of the conversations with the two undecided students and two of the pro-choice students. All four said they would vote to make abortion illegal. I used the Two Buckets analogy in most of these conversations, and I believe it was integral in helping several of them, if not all, rethink their views.

AFTER: Undecided: 0 Pro-Choice: 3 Pro-Life: 7

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Note: This story was originally published in Tammy Cook’s September 2021 newsletter. You can read and share both this and the first “Two Buckets” story using the following webpage: www.jfaweb.org/two-buckets.

One Central Question Helps Change a Mind

After serving at JFA for almost a decade, my sister Joanna Bai is moving on from her JFA work to focus completely on her growing family (she is due to give birth to another baby in March). Jon Wagner and I consider it a great gift and privilege to have been allowed to serve alongside our dear sister at JFA for so many years. The rest of the JFA team has expressed similar sentiments.

In this Impact Report we are featuring a conversation story Joanna shared in her March 2013 newsletter both because of the impact within the story itself, but also because it illustrates Joanna’s compelling teaching, her heart for mentoring, and her beautiful, clear writing – just a few of the many ways Joanna has impacted JFA’s team and mission. Please join us in thanking God for Joanna and enjoy with us this look back at His work through her. Thank you, Joanna! We will miss working with you! - Steve Wagner, Executive Director

Impact Report, March 2022

She started out defending abortion because of the plight of those in poverty. In just minutes, she said, “We really need to resolve the question of what the unborn is.” From there, I was able to help her find an answer. What caused the change?

I noticed “Jamie,” a confident young student at the University of North Texas, when she rode her bike up to the edge of the Justice For All Exhibit [Nov. 2012*]. It took me a few moments to decide if I would approach her. I’m so glad I did.

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Joanna (right) interacts with a student at Arizona State in February 2013. Image: Cheryl Caffarella Wilson

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Joanna (right) interacts with a student at Arizona State in February 2013. Image: Cheryl Caffarella Wilson

I asked Jamie what she thought about abortion. She told me openly, “Well, don’t get me wrong, I don’t like abortion. It just seems like difficult circumstances make it necessary. I’d say I’m pro-choice.”

“What sorts of circumstances are you concerned about the most?” I asked. She replied, “There are so many things. What about poverty? How can we force women who have no money and no resources to have kids? And how can we force those kids into such horrible lives?”

Jamie was raising an important point, but I knew that the fact of poverty itself wouldn’t help us discover whether abortion is a good solution to poverty. The conversation that followed illustrated perfectly one of the things we teach JFA volunteers: With abortion, there’s one central question we need to answer before moving on to other questions. I follow four steps to help people discover for themselves how central this question is. We call this process Trot Out a Toddler.*

Step 1: AGREE where possible.

Joanna: Jamie, I agree with you that many women have so little money and so few resources that it is difficult for them to be mothers. We need to be more concerned about those in poverty.

Step 2: APPLY the situation to a two-year-old.

Joanna: But Jamie, imagine a woman who is living in extreme poverty and who absolutely cannot rear a child. She doesn’t even have enough money to feed herself. Imagine that this woman has a two-year-old. Should she be able to kill that two-year-old because their lives are so difficult?

Jamie: Of course not. She cannot kill a two-year-old!

Joanna: I agree. Of course she cannot kill her two-year-old. And I know that question sounds a little odd on its face...

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Joanna (left) interacts with students at Arizona State in February 2013. Image: Cheryl Caffarella Wilson

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Joanna (right) interacts with students at Arizona State in February 2013. Image: Cheryl Caffarella Wilson

Step 3: ASK WHY the mother cannot kill the two-year-old.

Joanna: ...but let me ask you this: Why is it not okay to kill the two-year-old?

Jamie: Well, it’s not okay to kill the two-year-old because the two-year-old is a human being.

Step 4: AH! (The light-bulb moment: Discovering the central question, “What is the unborn?”)

Joanna: I agree. So it sounds like we don’t need to resolve the question of whether poverty matters. We agree that it certainly does. Rather, the question we need to resolve is, ‘What is the unborn?’ If the unborn is human like the two-year-old, then we can’t kill the unborn even because of poverty, right?

Jamie looked at me and I could tell she was thinking hard. She replied,

Jamie: That makes a lot of sense. I don’t know that much about when we become human, but it seems like that is the question we have to answer.

Most people will agree that abortion kills something, but whether or not we can kill a living thing depends first on what it is. Some pro-choice arguments address this question, “What is it?” and argue that the unborn is not a valuable human being. But others, like Jamie’s, ignore the unborn completely. Although arguments like hers raise important concerns, they assume that the unborn is not valuable. The four-step Trot Out a Toddler process helped Jamie realize that she needed to focus on the central question, “What is the unborn?”

Jamie and I continued our conversation for a few more minutes, discussing the evidence for the biological humanity of the unborn. We also discussed why we can have confidence that the unborn human has the same basic human rights that you and I have. Toward the end of the conversation, I was excited to see the progress we had made:

Jamie: You know, a lot of my friends are the ones protesting over there. [A number of pro-choice students had gathered with drums and signs to protest during the outreach.] But, I actually grew up in a Christian home, and my parents are pro-life. I don’t see eye to eye with my parents about a lot of things – for instance, I’m a lesbian – but I think I can agree with them about this issue. I think I can call myself pro-life now. I thought, by the way my friends talked, that you all were gonna shove anti-gay, anti-woman rhetoric at me. But I actually enjoyed this conversation. I really appreciate the way you all are creating dialogue.

I thanked her, and then she said something I’ll never forget:

Jamie: I have a lot of friends who have had abortions. And Joanna, you can see the change in them after the procedure. They carry an undeniable emptiness, as if they’ve truly lost a person.

And with that, she had to go to class.

Jamie’s barriers to being against abortion had been mainly social and cultural. She didn’t want to be identified with certain politically conservative views or certain “pro-life” people. The Trot Out a Toddler process was essential in our conversation because it helped her focus on the central question “What is the unborn?” Although this tool didn’t make the pro-life case for me, it helped Jamie and I agree about the question we needed to answer. It was just a short step from that point of agreement to Jamie’s moment of realizing that abortion is wrong because it kills a valuable human being.

* This story originally appeared in Joanna Bai’s March 2013 newsletter. See the links below to read other letters from Joanna. We owe the memorable phrase “Trot Out the Toddler” to Scott Klusendorf (prolifetraining.com) and the concept of “one central question” to Greg Koukl (str.org).

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Joanna Bai: Selected Newsletters

Changing Hearts Is Still Job One

As I write this, the Supreme Court is expected to issue an emergency ruling soon on the Texas law (SB8) that has successfully curtailed many abortions in the state. It will also hear oral arguments on December 1 on the Mississippi law banning abortion after 15 weeks (Dobbs). There is some reason for optimism, especially on Dobbs, but the view we’ve gotten from the field is that our most important challenge remains a constant: many people, inside communities of Christians and outside, simply don’t have a strong love for unborn children and their mothers. It’s that love that drives the JFA team to work to protect both from abortion.

So changing hearts remains Job One. In this Impact Report, we share reflections from participants who found that love and the tools to express it through our training program. We also share pictures of conversations created at recent outreach events. To read some of the amazing stories of changed hearts from the past few months, click the links towards the end of this post.

I am coming to realize just how important it is to reach out to people who are thinking of having an abortion. I used to think that I could not make much of a difference, so why even try? But I have come to realize that saving even one life is worth going out and talking to these women, even though it is outside of my comfort zone. – Abby

God’s really been teaching me how to love correctly lately. I get very passionate about abortion, so something God’s been teaching me today is how to take that passion he’s given me and give it back to him so he can use it through me. I’ve been doing it without a lot of love and I’ve felt convicted of that. – Lydia

You have met a concern I didn’t know how to express: it bothered me when Christians just made intellectual arguments and neglected the life of the mother and all the other difficult aspects of this situation. I have never had a framework or seen an example of this being done in love before. I feel like I have the resources now to take a stand against something that is wrong while demonstrating love and showing care. I LOVE the scripts and additional resources. You made this hands on and practical/tangible. I was so thankful for this training! I feel equipped and encouraged and even excited! – Allison

Thank you for making my voice usable. – Rachel

This opened my eyes to the abortion dialogue. It was always a topic of conversation [to which] I would just say “Amen, that’s wrong.” Now I have the tools to actually do something. Your emphasis [on] the “relational” helps me shift this from a debate to an opportunity to love and share the gospel of Jesus Christ. – Eli

Very well articulated. I have been through [similar] seminars, and this did a great job at solidifying this topic into my brain and rekindling the fire in my heart towards this subject. – Garrett

This was super helpful, and not just philosophically, but ... practically. This has been such a great reminder that it’s not only about the unborn, but also about the person standing in front of us, and that we’re called as Christians to love both. – Annie

I used to look at the topic of abortion as a big rock that I could not move. Now I learned that I can now slowly chip away at it. – Mariah

Interns in Action (Part 2)

Impact Report, October 2021

At JFA, our internships are an expression of our passion for nurturing young leaders, helping them create conversations that change hearts and minds and helping them learn to train others. In all of these activities, we emphasize dependence on God to bring the results He wishes to bring through our efforts.

In our Impact Report last month, interns Rose and Bella shared stories of conversations they had during August and September outreach events at Wichita State University.

In this Impact Report, interns Andrea and Kristina share a window into how this process of creating conversations has affected them personally, including deepening their trust in God at every moment. As you endeavor to make a difference in the lives of those God puts in your path, I hope these insights from Andrea and Kristina will also encourage you to trust God throughout each interaction.

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Some of JFA’s interns come to us with very little conversation experience, just like many of our training participants. Because we place conversations and outreach front and center in the internship, interns quickly identify with our training participants’ normal fears and uncertainties, but our interns also gain insights they can share out of their personal experience with people they will be training. Interns Andrea and Kristina recently shared some of those insights:

Andrea Thenhaus: One of the most valuable skills I have learned is how to listen with an open heart yet also be able to share the truth in a conversation. I have gained a greater understanding of how to meet people in whatever circumstances they may be… I appreciate the mentoring that JFA provides. When out on campus I had a JFA member evaluate each conversation I had, which was especially helpful… I have been stretched in the Lord and grown in boldness. I have learned the importance of relying on the Lord to direct my conversations. Every conversation is an invitation to let the Holy Spirit step in and accomplish His work through me. I am thankful that the Lord is faithful to give me wisdom.

Kristina Massa: The scariest part about abortion dialogue is initiating the first conversation. Even after training and practice with Justice For All, the fears that accompanied asking strangers what they think about abortion continued to billow in my mind: What if they share an argument for which I’m not prepared? What if they yell at me? What if this is an emotional topic for them, and my question stirs up those emotions? The list of fears and lies the devil plants in our minds to prevent us from taking the first step can feel like it goes on forever, but the army of graces that God affords us to overcome those fears puts that list to shame.

With the support of the JFA team, I took a leap of faith in my first conversation at outreach. A young woman approached us to sign our poll which asked, “Should Abortion Remain Legal?” I initiated a conversation by asking her questions about her view. I was nervous, my demeanor was shaky, and I stumbled on my words. Any snarky person could have easily used my weakness to walk on me. To my surprise, the woman (who identified as pro-choice) was extremely gracious, and we found ourselves in a productive dialogue filled with lots of common ground. God used the woman’s temperament to compensate for what I was lacking. We may not have all of the right words or confidence we want in every conversation, but time and time again, God has demonstrated to me that He will provide the safe ground to land on as long as we take our leap of faith.

Interns in Action (Part 1)

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Introducing our intern class for the fall of 2021: Andrea, Rose, Kristina, and Bella.

Since mid-August when JFA’s fall 2021 internship began, interns Andrea, Rose, Kristina, and Bella have spent many hours conducting outreach events and creating conversations to help people change their minds about abortion. This month, Rose and Bella share a window into their experiences in their own words:

Rose: At Wichita State University in August, “Natasha” seemed to be captivated by our sandwich boards on display. I greeted her and asked if she had time to talk about her thoughts on abortion. She smiled and eagerly said, “Yes please, I don’t usually have conversations about this topic.” She mentioned that she was “on the fence” about abortion, but that her mother was pro-life. She proceeded to share and tell stories about her mother’s pregnancies and abortions… we moved to sit down in the shade on a nearby bench… [and] the conversation shifted when we were on the same level sitting down together side by side.

She shared with me that she was minoring in Women’s Studies. I took an interest in that and started asking her questions about… what she was learning. It then turned into a conversation focused on motherhood and the lies the world tells women about what motherhood should look like. She shared with me that many of her friends that have gotten abortions view the situation as “the most tragic and regretful decisions they have ever made.” She also said that after having abortions, most of her friends have become pro-life rather than remaining pro-choice. This statement provided a glimpse of hope for me that women’s hearts and minds can and will be transformed after they have reflected upon and faced healing after abortion.

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Rose (center in pink), Kristina (hat), and other JFA team members interact with Wichita State students at a JFA outreach event in late August.

She also mentioned some women in her life that have chosen to be mothers when all the odds seemed against them inspire her. We found common ground in viewing children as blessings rather than burdens, and that babies give women fuel and reasons to fulfill their dreams. At one point in the conversation, I mentioned the pro-life movie Unplanned. About five minutes later, her mother texted her a link to the movie. If that is not God communicating to me that I was talking to the right person at the right time, I don’t know what is. When we ended our conversation she said to me, “Thank you for taking the time to speak with me; you’ve solidified my pro-life views.” That was very rewarding to hear. I was very pleased that I could make a difference through a simple friendly conversation.

Bella: Before coming to JFA I thought I was loving the woman, but I really wasn’t. I would say I cared, but I didn’t understand how to care. I didn’t know how to open my eyes wide enough to take in the entire picture. I was scared that if I even for a moment glimpsed away from the unborn that I would somehow fail them. I didn’t know how to love the woman, have compassion for the person I was talking to, and still fight for the unborn. I realize now that I didn’t have compassion for the woman and the pro-choice advocate because I was still seeing the abortion issue as an Us v. Them, instead of an Us v. Injustice. Once my mindset shifted from seeing [pro-choice advocates] as the enemy, to seeing them as misinformed yet well-intentioned human beings hoping for justice and peace like me, the game changed. Now when I speak with someone who disagrees with me, I genuinely want to listen to them. Through this mindset I have had more fruitful (and surprisingly pleasant) conversations where a lot of progress has been made. I have learned that compassion is never wasted. It’s compassion that invokes us to listen and change…

Yesterday at outreach I was speaking to someone who didn’t have that strong of an opinion on abortion, but was pro-choice because he believed that women should be able to decide what to do with their lives. We walked through the biology and the Equal Rights argument, and he agreed with me all along the way. He then said something along the lines that the embryo just seems so far removed and hard to relate to, I agreed with him but [noted] that the way we look doesn’t define our value as humans. He agreed but then kind of shrugged and said, “That’s just the way society is; I don't know if I’d say it’s wrong—it’s socially acceptable…” I reminded him that at one point racism was socially acceptable and was the norm, but we now know that that was wrong despite the common opinion. He responded, “You are right, and I bet there were people that when they logically thought about it realized that it was wrong, and that’s why we are here today living in a nation that now understands racism is wrong. I guess we need to start educating people about abortion, helping people see what’s actually happening with abortion.” I was shocked that he had said that. I knew that his mind hadn’t completely changed, but he agreed that the divide here is a lack of familiarity and affection for the unborn. People are seeing the unborn as something they are not, so of course it is hard to see where we are coming from.

October 2021 Update: In Part 2, interns Kristina and Andrea share additional reflections.

Interns Kristina Massa (left), Rose Maddock (center), and Bella O’Neill (right) engage three students in conversation at Wichita State University.

Intern Andrea Thenhaus engages a student in conversation at Colorado Christian Universtiy.

Bella O’Neill in conversation at Tarleton State University, Stephenville, Texas

Krisitna Massa in conversation at Tarleton State University.

Rose Maddock engages two students in conversation at Wichita State University.

Rose Maddock (pink tank top) and Kristina Massa (hat) engage students in respectful conversations at Wichita State University in August.

Jack Changes His Mind...Three Times

Part 1: A Good Conversation Is a Mirror

One of my favorite conversations from my JFA work is my conversation with “Jack” from 2013. Recently I’ve been sharing it with audiences as an example of the kind of complete change of mind that can happen very quickly. I don’t mean to imply that most JFA conversations result in a conversion this dramatic, but the story does help us catch a glimpse of what is possible with any conversation. Let’s trust that God is working behind the scenes of every conversation, even if we don’t see results like this. -Steve Wagner, July 2021 Impact Report

It was a special treat. In many conversations, the person with whom I’m speaking doesn’t show a clear change of mind. I simply must trust God to work behind the scenes. In one conversation at the University of Texas at San Antonio (UTSA) in March 2013, though, I had the privilege of watching a young man I’ll call “Jack” change his mind...three times.

“Jack” (right) and Steve ponder pictures of human development and work to discover what explains our equal rights. (Photo by John Michener)

Jack had talked to someone at our outreach the previous day, so when I asked him where he drew the line on human rights, he was ready with an answer. “At eighteen weeks,” he said. Through a few minutes of clarifying questions from me, he stated that he believed the unborn was a human being biologically, but that the basic right to life began when brain processing was such that the unborn could respond to sound.

He had another reason to draw the line at about eighteen weeks, though: viability. Again, I asked a few questions to clarify what he meant, and he confirmed that he meant that when the unborn could survive outside the womb, even if she required technology, she would have the basic right to life.

“Doesn’t progress in technology move the point of viability earlier and earlier?” I asked.

“That’s a really good point,” Jack pondered. He and I agreed human rights could not be determined by a criterion that could be moved from year to year by technological advances. The first change of mind.

I then raised a problem for Jack to solve. “If all of us walking around the campus deserve equal treatment, we must have something the same about us that demands that we be treated equally. But what is the same about us?”

He had raised the possibility that “brain processing” was the thing that made the unborn valuable at about eighteen weeks. I asked if he meant brain processing itself. When he said, “Yes,” I pointed out that brain processing is something that comes in degrees – we can have more or less of it. Since it’s not something we all have equally, it cannot ground equal rights. He saw the problem.

I gave him another option, though. If he framed his explanation for equal rights as “that we have brain processing at all” then it would be an all-or-nothing property that could potentially ground equal human rights. It was true that all of the adults whose rights we were discussing in the vicinity of the outreach at UTSA did have the property of “having brain processing at all,” and they had that property equally. If Jack was right that this adjusted criterion was the reason for basic rights, then that would account for the equal rights of adults, and it would account for the fact that infants also share those equal rights. In fact, the basic right to life would then extend into the womb to approximately the point he had picked, at eighteen weeks.

I pointed out, though, that this would present an additional problem: then many animals, such as dogs, would also have equal rights to the rest of us, because they also have the property of “having brain processing at all.” Jack made a predictable move at this point and added two additional criteria. “You don’t just have to have ‘brain processing at all’ to have equal rights. You also have to be viable and human.”

I asked him if he could give me an independent reason to believe that value should be based on these three things in combination. I was looking for an independent reason other than “It saves my view that the unborn should only be protected after eighteen weeks, and that whatever rights animals deserve, they shouldn’t be equal to humans.”

He saw the point of my question, and he quickly saw what philosophers would call the ad hoc nature of his argument. His only reason for adjusting his argument was to save it from the implications I drew from it.

I could see the wheels turning. My explanation for equal rights was also on the table – human nature. But the implications of that view were also clear: if human nature is the thing that we all share equally that demands that we be treated equally, then the unborn should be treated equally, too, because the unborn has that same human nature.

“Okay, you’ve convinced me,” he said. “I agree that abortion should only be legal if the mother’s life is in danger.” A second change of mind.

Unlike many students I talk to, who feel they have to put on confident airs or defend their arguments at all costs, Jack clearly wanted something more than to impress me. He wanted to understand truth. He got the truth, and I ended up impressed with him anyway – especially with his humble spirit.

I hadn’t taken a posture of trying to change Jack’s mind. Our conversation functioned more like a mirror, reflecting back to Jack what I heard him telling me. He responded like the happy young chap about to make a business proposal who barely remembers to check the mirror and finds a spot of mustard left unceremoniously on his chin by his lunchtime liverwurst. No one wants to be oblivious to his real state of affairs. There were two factors, though, that especially caused my mirror to be helpful to Jack:

• Without the skills of clear thinking, the mirror would have failed to reflect certain portions of the image properly. Because I knew the questions to ask, the exact image emerged for Jack. Mastering clear thinking skills takes work, but you can learn to create a helpful reflection for someone like Jack. To take practical steps to begin developing these skills, see www.jfaweb.org/clear-thinking.

• The image would have become blurry or distorted like that of a carnival mirror had I not had an attitude of humility and goodwill. If I had needed to show Jack my intellectual prowess, he might have felt the need to take me down a peg or two. If I had belittled his views or mocked them, it would have made it harder for him to take the truth seriously. He might have felt the need to defend turf, and he would have been distracted from the truth altogether.

Throughout our conversation, I brought an attitude of partnering to find truth together. I considered his arguments as if they might be true. Because he was worth my time, his arguments were worth my best efforts to evaluate them with him. He looked in the mirror that our conversation was presenting to him, saw his views for what they were, and decided to make a change right then.

I sensed that our work was not finished, though, because Jack and I had not yet confronted the two thorniest aspects of the topic, especially when combined as an argument for legal abortion: bodily rights and rape. Instead of assuming the conversation had been sufficient as a mirror, I decided to turn it into a window. That’s when Jack had his third moment of truth. I’ll explain in Part 2 below.

- Steve Wagner, for the JFA Team

Note: Steve’s conversation with “Jack” took place in March 2013. This report was originally published later that year. Special thanks to John Michener of Oklahomans United for Life for his editing on this piece in 2013. This post has been updated in minor ways and can be shared via www.jfaweb.org/mirror-and-window.

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Part 2: A Good Conversation Is a Window

In this report, you’ll see the conclusion of my conversation with Jack from 2013, and you’ll see him change his mind a third time. You’ll see how I gave him a window for viewing the most compelling arguments for abortion, along with compelling responses to them. I hope reading this conversation will not only inspire you to look deeper into the ideas, but that it will also help you see that you can create conversations which compel abortion-choice advocates to change their minds. - Steve Wagner, August 2021 Impact Report

In Part I above, I described how “Jack” in San Antonio abandoned his belief that the unborn only become valuable at viability and then later said I had convinced him that abortion should not be legal except in the case of a threat to the mother’s life.

“Jack” (above, right) initially clarified that he believed abortion should generally be legal. 90 minutes later he said, “Heck” and wrote on the Free Speech Board (below). He told me that he now thought abortion should not be legal even in the case of rape.

These two changes of mind were encouraging, but I sensed that our work was not finished. We hadn’t yet discussed arguments claiming that even if the unborn is a human being, the woman’s right to her body justifies abortion. I knew that if we didn’t address these bodily rights arguments, especially compelling in the case of rape, Jack might be shaken when he encountered them.

In the first part of the conversation, Jack had been making the claims, and I had been functioning as a mirror to help him assess his own views about abortion. Now I set out to function more like a window, showing Jack other arguments out there that he hadn’t considered yet.

I began by explaining what former JFA intern Trent Horn called the “Sovereign Zone” view: A woman can do anything she wants with anything in her body, and because the unborn is inside her body, the woman can kill the unborn. I pointed out that if a woman has the right to do anything with anything that is inside her body, then many things would be justified legally, including intentionally deforming the unborn by taking thalidomide and intentionally torturing the unborn late in the pregnancy through dismemberment abortion. (See “Autumn in the Sovereign Zone” at www.jfaweb.org/body for more on this approach.)

Seeing the implications of the Sovereign Zone view clearly through this window, Jack and I agreed it had to be abandoned. I knew that there was a stronger version of the bodily rights argument that was not so easily dismantled, though, and I went on to tell Jack about it.

Sure, it’s obvious that a woman can’t do anything to anything that is inside her body. But can she be forced to allow the unborn to do something to her body – to use her body to sustain its life? Or does she have a right to refuse? As Trent Horn has pointed out, unlike the Sovereign Zone argument, which is based on a very controversial premise, this “Right to Refuse” argument is based on a very uncontroversial premise: Generally speaking, you can’t be forced to do something with your body you don’t want to do.

It’s not only pro-choice advocates who find this argument plausible. I find it plausible. If you find yourself hooked up to someone who needs your kidney to live, you can’t be forced to stay hooked up. How then can a government force a woman to stay hooked up to her unborn child? And worse, what if the woman didn’t consent to intimacy? Can a woman who is pregnant from rape be forced to continue to use her body to sustain the unborn’s life? As Jack and I pondered these questions together, I noted how compelling this line of reasoning is. Even if it holds only in the case of rape and therefore applies to no more than 1.5% of abortions in America, it’s troubling.

It’s important to note that throughout this conversation I emphasized genuine sympathy for those who have been raped. This is imperative in any conversation about rape and abortion, but especially when that conversation involves complicated intellectual arguments. We should never get so caught up in our ideas that we forget the people affected by them. This is not just true with the topic of rape, but also with any appeal to bodily rights. (Please see “Meeting the Relational Challenge” at www.jfaweb.org/body for more on this.)

I then shared two parables with Jack that indicate there’s something amiss with the Right to Refuse argument, even in the case of rape. I’ll share just a snapshot of one of them here, and you can see a full treatment of the approach I used with Jack in a paper we published online in April 2013: “De Facto Guardian and Abortion.” (You can find this paper, along with newer resources with alternative approaches at www.jfaweb.org/body.)

In the movie Up, Carl (inset image, white hair) sets his house free from the ground, flies thousands of feet in the air, and then hears a knock at the door. The young explorer Russell has stowed away on the porch and is about to fall off. Is Carl obligated to take him in? Should the law expect him to give Russell food and shelter? What if he has to use his body to pour water or cut bread for Russell? Does this change the obligation?

Jack agreed that Carl does have an obligation to use his body to support Russell’s life. He also agreed this should be a legal obligation. One explanation of this obligation is that Carl just happens to be, for whatever reason, the only person in the vicinity who can care for Russell. We called Carl a de facto guardian because it seems he has the same obligations as that of a parent or guardian, though temporarily.

The woman pregnant from rape is similarly situated to Carl. She didn’t ask to be in the situation where she would be the only person in the vicinity who could care for a child. But she is. If the de facto guardian principle holds, then, she has an obligation (and, as we argue, what should be a legal obligation) to give the child in her womb the food and shelter he needs. She has the obligation to care for the child even if she didn’t consent to that obligation, and even if she doesn’t feel like a parent. We, in turn, should surround her with support.

After writing this comment towards the end of our conversation, Jack told me that he now thought abortion should not be legal even in the case of rape.

After discussing this strongest version of the Right to Refuse argument and how it fared in light of our intuitions about parables like the Up story, Jack said, “Heck” and wrote on the Free Speech Board, “Life will force you into situations you don’t necessarily want but have to deal with nonetheless.” He then verbalized to me that abortion should not be legal, even early in the pregnancy and even in the case of rape.

I saw this third change as more significant than Jack’s previous changes of mind. Now I was satisfied that I had created a window so he could see clearly the very best arguments for legal abortion before rejecting them. Evidently I did a good job of presenting those arguments, because at one point Jack said I was making him start to waver and think abortion might be justified. As you can imagine, I created this window for Jack with some fear and trembling. Why risk someone wavering back toward the pro-choice position? Even worse, why risk someone becoming a more confident pro-choice advocate with better arguments?

There are two reasons my fears didn’t keep me from creating a window for Jack. First, truth is not fragile. It will shine through if we ask the right questions and apply our minds to the study of sound reasoning. Second, Jack is a human being who is intrinsically valuable. He’s not an opportunity to make a convert. He deserves my best efforts to create conversation that is both a mirror and a window.

- Steve Wagner, for the JFA Team

Note: Steve’s conversation with “Jack” took place in March 2013. This report was originally published later that year. Special thanks to John Michener of Oklahomans United for Life for his editing on this piece in 2013. This post has been updated in minor ways and can be shared via www.jfaweb.org/mirror-and-window.

Postscript

JFA’s “Stop and Think” Exhibit is reflected in the windows of a building at Colorado State University in 2016. In a way, JFA’s Exhibits also function as both a mirror and a window - reflecting back to people the reality of what their views entail and giving people insight into topics and ideas they may never have thought about. You can see all of JFA’s Exhibits at our Exhibits page.

A Conversation with a Planned Parenthood Volunteer

Impact Report, May 2021

Note: Sometimes it’s a blessing in disguise to be in the dark. In this Impact Report, JFA trainer Mary St. Hilaire describes an unforgettable conversation with “Ashley” that highlights a valuable lesson for all of us: Give the benefit of the doubt. Because Ashley wasn’t forthcoming with her views, Mary was allowed to simply enjoy Ashley’s company as they talked. It appears this helped Ashley consider Mary’s pro-life beliefs with a more open mind. - Steve Wagner, Executive Director

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Mary (sitting) interacts with a student at University of Oklahoma at a JFA outreach event in March 2021.

I walked up to “Ashley” while she was studying a cluttered free speech board at a Justice For All (JFA) event. I asked her if she had thoughts about abortion, and behind a grin, she replied that she did but that she was “just looking.” She expressed how interesting it was to read the array of comments from people on both sides of the issue. I agreed and began reading them with her. After a minute or so, she turned to me and asked what my thoughts were. As I began to share my pro-life perspective with Ashley, I wondered what she was thinking, what her position was, and what kind of person she might be. My first impression was that she certainly seemed to be a genuinely kind and joyful person. She had a captivating smile and laugh which put me at ease. I felt comfortable sharing my beliefs even though I was ignorant of hers. I figured that she couldn’t be extremely pro-choice or she would have had a lot more to say to me.

After briefly sharing my thoughts, she began asking me more about myself, my job, and how I became involved with JFA. I told her I was working with JFA full-time and that I loved it.

Ashley: [with a huge smile] That makes me so happy! I’m so glad you have found something you love. I’m curious: Are your pro-life beliefs a result of your faith?

Mary: Yes and no! I was raised Catholic, and the Catholic Church teaches that human life is sacred and valuable from the moment of conception until natural death. But, as an adult I have also looked at the science and the non-religious arguments as to why the unborn are human and deserving of the right to life. So, yeah, my faith has definitely influenced my pro-life beliefs, but I can also base those beliefs on science.

Ashley: That makes total sense!

It was at this point that she finally began to open up about her own opinion of abortion. I was truly enjoying Ashley’s company and conversation, so I was excited to hear her thoughts.

Ashley: In the past several years I kind of took a step back from my faith, but I was raised Christian, so I can totally understand where you’re coming from. I like coming to these types of events because I really want to educate myself on both sides of different political and moral issues and I don’t know that I’ve made up my mind on the issue of abortion yet.

Thoroughly impressed by Ashley’s maturity and honesty, I wanted to find out more.

Mary: I think it’s great that you are really searching for the truth! Can I ask...do you think the unborn is biologically human?

Ashley didn’t know anything about the biology of the unborn and was open to hearing my thoughts. After I quickly shared some scientific evidence, she agreed the unborn is biologically human. I then shifted the conversation to the topic of equal rights outside of the womb.

Mary: Let’s take a break from the unborn for a second. Ashley, what do you think gives you and me and everyone here on campus equal value? I think we can both agree that we should be treated equally, despite all our differences. So it makes sense to say there must be something we all share that grounds our equality, right?

Ashley: Absolutely! We’re all human. So I guess it’s a question of, “Is the unborn the same kind of human as you and I?” and if so, then abortion would be killing an innocent human being.

Mary: I think you’re right.

I was surprised at how easily Ashley understood my train of thought. Then suddenly, almost out of nowhere and to my utter shock, Ashley nonchalantly told me more of her story.

Ashley: I volunteer at Planned Parenthood because I really care about women and I want to help give them more accessible birth control, so I table with them on campus. I know they provide abortion services, which I don’t really like, but I think it’s a pretty small percentage of what they do...what do you think about Planned Parenthood?

As shocked as I was by this new discovery, I tried to gently and graciously share the truth about Planned Parenthood with Ashley.

Mary: I think it’s awesome that you are going out of your way to help women! As far as Planned Parenthood goes, I know they do other things than abortion, but I think you’d be surprised at how much of their business is actually abortion. Whatever the case may be about that, it really does come down to that question, “Is the unborn a valuable human being with the right to life?” because if so, it doesn’t matter whether or not abortion is their number one money-maker or just something they’re doing on the side. It’s that they are doing it at all that matters. We wouldn’t support an animal shelter that provides services for animals, but also abuses some of their animals on the side, would we?

Ashley: [nodding] Yeah, for sure. I get what you’re saying. I guess I’m just still trying to decide what I believe about the unborn.

Mary: That’s totally understandable.

It was at this point that a pro-life student who had been listening in on our conversation interjected, asking if Ashley had heard of the movie Unplanned, the story of former Planned Parenthood clinic director Abby Johnson and her conversion. He explained the storyline and encouraged her to watch it. I almost couldn’t believe my ears when Ashley replied that she had heard of it and sincerely promised that she would “definitely look into it.” As our conversation drew to a close, Ashley turned to me and said, “You’ve really given me a lot to think about!” I expressed how much I had enjoyed talking with her.

“I would have believed her to be the exact opposite of the person she really was.”

As I walked away from this conversation, I had to pause and take a moment to process what had just happened. Ashley is by far the kindest person I have ever encountered on campus and perhaps one of the kindest people I’ve ever met. She was genuinely interested in my life and my beliefs; she shared in the joy of my success with JFA despite disagreement on the issue of abortion; she was caring and compassionate towards women and children; she was gracious and respectful to me and other pro-life volunteers she encountered; and yet, she was also a Planned Parenthood volunteer. If I had met Ashley last year, before going through JFA training, and she had started our conversation by saying she volunteered for Planned Parenthood, I would have made a million assumptions about what she believed and who she was. I would have presumed her to be radically pro-abortion, close-minded, and hostile. I would have believed her to be the exact opposite of the person she really was.

As pro-life advocates who are passionate about defending the sacredness of human life and ending the injustice of abortion, it’s easy for us to assume the worst about people who disagree with us. We forget the fact that most pro-choice people, especially many who work in the abortion industry, care about women and children. We must remind ourselves that there are kind people with good intentions on both sides of the issue, but we will only ever discover this and make an impact in their lives if we take the time to get to know them, not with presumption or hatred but with graciousness and love. I am so thankful that this encounter with Ashley helped me to see this more clearly.

- Mary St. Hilaire, for the JFA Team

Contact Mary: Web - Instagram - Facebook

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A Note from JFA Executive Director, Steve Wagner:

In my April letter, I described a core value of JFA’s internship program: our interns don’t make coffee. Instead, they learn the art of using dialogue to change hearts and minds about abortion. Then they learn the art of training others to do the same. Along the way, we rely on God to give these young people courage to do amazing things they never thought possible. Rebekah Dyer illustrated this by sharing how God is using a personal weakness to teach her to trust his strength.

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Mary St. Hilaire interacts with a University of New Mexico student during her internship in February 2020.

Not only are our interns-turned-trainers learning skills to train large and small groups, as Rebekah described. They also glean new insights from regular outreach conversations, allowing them to place their unique stamp on our training program.

Recent Instagram Post: In this classic photo, JFA intern Trent Horn engages in an animated examination of a textbook with a student while Jon Wagner and I look on. Trent and I recently discussed memories of his early days with JFA on his podcast, The Counsel of Trent. Now a staff apologist with Catholic Answers, Trent models for thousands the art of changing minds about abortion through radio, writing, and speaking. Click the photo to share via Instagram! - Steve Wagner

Mary St. Hilaire, a JFA trainer who began her work as an intern in 2020, provides a good example of this in JFA’s May Impact Report (above). Through this conversation, Mary gained perspective she can now share with each person she trains.

We are excited to report that we’re currently working to fill three internship slots for fall 2021. Each intern will learn the same skills Mary and Rebekah have been mastering beautifully. Do you want to support our incoming interns? Here are two ways you can help: (1) Continue supporting any JFA trainer’s work; each trainer pours into the lives of our interns. (2) Designate a gift for the Intern Scholarship Fund, which allows interns to “test the waters” of working for JFA without first having to assemble a long-term support team. Thank you for your support!

Bridging the Divide

Impact Report
November 2020

In this Impact Report, we’ll describe how throughout the tumult of 2020, God helped us bridge both ideological and physical divides to continue to connect people to the truth that only God can clarify and the healing that only God provides. You’ll also see how God turned the frustration of lockdowns into good fruit, including a new online training program you can help us promote starting now! We give thanks to God for you and your partnership in the work of bridging the divide.

- Steve Wagner, Executive Director

University of New Mexico, Feb. 2020

As we look back at a year filled with discord, debate, drama, disease, and death, it’s easy to get discouraged.

University of Texas at San Antonio, Feb. 2020

Our culture seems to be completely overcome by division, and as if the usual ideological division was not enough, now various versions of lockdowns have made physical division a reality as well.

Early this year, as in past years, our team at Justice For All (JFA) set ourselves to live out our habit of stepping across the ideological divide. We go to people who disagree with us. We train pro-life advocates to come with us. One passion motivates us: kindling affection for the forgotten, beginning with women in distress, the smallest humans on earth, and those who differ from us in appearance or beliefs. What happens to this work, though, when a physical divide confronts it?

Susanna Dirks with a University of Texas at Dallas student in March 2020

During this time of Thanksgiving, will you mark with us the ways God has continued to work through the JFA team to help us bridge both ideological and physical divides, connecting people to the truth only God can clarify and the healing that only God provides?

In February and March, JFA teams trained volunteers in New Mexico and Texas, engaging five campuses in discussion about abortion (pictured).

Interactive Online Workshops, May-Nov. 2020

When COVID-19 hit, we refashioned our in-person training into an interactive online workshop series, complete with step-by-step instructions to help participants create conversations on abortion in everyday life. (See JFA’s June 2020 letter for one story from a participant.) Over the next six months, we produced 105 hours of training for over 130 people in 27 states, including many states we have not been able to visit very often (or ever!). Participants from Canada and France also joined us!

In addition, during the months we were unable to conduct outreach in person, our staff explored a new outreach venue: social media. We had little hope it would come to much, but we were determined to try. Our team was pleasantly surprised that there are plenty of opportunities for engaging strangers and friends online. (Kaitlyn reflected on one special conversation in our July 2020 letter.)

JFA presented workshops in person in seven states this fall (CA, CO, KS, OH, OK, NE, and MI). Then, replete with masks, our team was especially thankful to be able to spend two days interacting with students at the University of Oklahoma.

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Kaitlyn teaches equal rights during an online JFA workshop in Nov. 2020.

While we’re excited about each of these 2020 efforts, we’re not satisfied. We know that every Christian needs training, and with no increased cost, our video conferencing software can handle about ten times the number of people who on average participated in each of our workshops this year.

That’s why we’ve set a goal of registering 800 people for our interactive online workshops taking place from January to March 2021. While we will also plan in-person events, these online events cannot be shut down by COVID-19 restrictions, so they are the most sensible place to put our most robust efforts.

Rebekah Dyer (right) with a University of Oklahoma student in Nov. 2020

We need your help to bring this training to so many people. Do you want to take a next step to “bridge the divide” and help us create thousands of conversations in 2021?

Go to www.jfaweb.org/love3 to learn more about JFA’s online workshops beginning January 18. Register to attend, and invite friends to join you. Thank you for partnering with us in spreading the word about these workshops, and in giving to JFA. Your gifts help provide this free training for others.

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University of Oklahoma, Nov. 2020
Staff members pictured: Rebekah Dyer, Jon Wagner, and Mary St. Hilaire

Banner Image by Andre A. Xavier on Unsplash

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You can also give a gift at JFA’s Donate page to provide training for others.

* Previously titled “7 Conversations in 7 Hours,” Love3 refers to conducting abortion conversations in a way that actively loves the woman, the child, and the person with whom we’re speaking.

Nail Party Evangelism

Impact Report, July 2020

A Note From JFA’s Executive Director:  Over the past few months, our team has been exploring the value of using social media for conversations about abortion. We’ve gathered regularly to share stories, to pray, and to evaluate different ideas for starting conversations. When Kaitlyn shared the story featured in this Impact Report, we were all spellbound. While we all long to return to face-to-face conversations at outreach, it appears that there are ways in which social media can open doors for conversation not likely to come about in person.  - Steve Wagner, Executive Director

One of JFA’s Instagram posts, above, drew the comment below and led to a conversation. Follow JFA (@picturejusticeforall) to help us start more conversations.

From the very beginning, JFA has stretched my comfort zone. When COVID-19 forced us to cancel many of our spring outreach events and the leadership team announced that we were going to focus for the time being on using social media to have conversations about abortion, I knew that my comfort zone was going to be stretched yet again. Thankfully, our team has spent time praying together and encouraging each other as we have tackled this difficult project.

I have never used any form of social media. It intimidates me. Nevertheless, I started an Instagram account in the hope that I might be able to use it to start conversations with pro-choice people. I followed a couple of pro-life pages and began reading through the comments on their posts. I was intimidated by the many nasty comments from both pro-life and pro-choice people. I was determined to at least try to have a conversation, though, so I sent a direct message to every pro-choice person I saw regardless of whether their comments were nasty or not.

To my surprise, even the individuals who had left particularly offensive comments were generally open to dialogue when I engaged them in a respectful and friendly way. Within mere hours of starting an Instagram account, I was talking with a pro-choice girl. She shared with me her story and some of the difficult experiences that have shaped her views on this issue and other issues. We talked about the problem of pain, worldviews, and the gospel. Through this and other conversations, I was amazed and excited to discover that it is possible to have meaningful dialogue over Instagram.

I never would have thought that social media could become a platform for dialogue, much less that it might open doors for impact that in-person events never could.

I was having a conversation with another young woman on Instagram. She was very pro-choice. We talked about abortion for awhile and eventually began talking about faith. She shared her belief that the world is a simulation: We are characters in some more powerful being’s video game. We don’t have free will. Our every movement is determined by that other being.

I believe that different religious perspectives are worth discussing for their own sake, but I also believe that our religious perspective often becomes the foundation upon which all of our other beliefs are built. If someone believes that no one has free will, that we are just characters in a video game, it is likely that their pro-choice perspective flows from that belief and thus we must challenge that underlying belief system.

We talked for a while on Instagram direct message about her beliefs. After a while, she asked me what I believed, and I shared with her about my faith in Christ. But there are ways in which discussing these kinds of topics over direct message can be difficult, tedious, and frustrating. One has to type everything out, wait sometimes hours for a response only to be confused by the response, ask a question to clarify, then wait again.

Instagram has a video call option, so I asked her if she would be interested in doing a video call so that we could dive deeper into our discussion of our different worldviews. She said yes, and we picked a time that worked for both of us.

When I called, she answered and said that she had forgotten we were going to talk and that she and her friends were doing their nails. I said that we could definitely wait until a better time, but she insisted that we talk then. I expected a one-on-one conversation but what I got was a group conversation as her friends chimed in with their perspectives.

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Background Photo by John Schnobrich on Unsplash

I asked more questions about their worldviews, and they asked questions about mine. I shared about my journey of coming to faith in Christ and some of the evidence for the resurrection of Jesus that I find to be convincing.

We talked for about an hour. When the conversation was over, I felt deeply disappointed. It wasn’t what I had hoped for. I had planned to have a one-on-one conversation. I had planned to dive seriously into our worldviews. Instead, I ended up in a group conversation that was too casual, lighthearted, and chaotic to allow us to focus in a serious way on the important topics I had come to discuss.

As much as I was disappointed by it, I believe that God had a plan. I intended to share the gospel with just one person and ended up sharing it with six different people all at once.

It also amazes me to think that a total stranger with a very different worldview than mine would invite me to “join” a party with her friends, share my perspective, and have a conversation. I didn’t think social media had any potential for impact let alone that it might allow me to accomplish something I couldn’t have done in person. I want to invite you to join us and try to have conversations on social media. You might be surprised by what God does through you.

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Get Equipped to Create Conversations!

We’ve recently added new “7 Conversations in 7 Hours” interactive online workshops to our calendar. Get all of the details at www.jfaweb.org/7 and www.jfaweb.org/calendar.

Join Us for “Encouragement for Conversations”

We’ve just launched a brand-new program to support and encourage you as you seek to create conversations on social media and in everyday life. JFA’s experienced dialogue mentors host a video conference call every Thursday at 3 PM Central to allow you and other like-minded pro-life advocates to share stories, pray, and learn new ways to start conversations. Join us once, occasionally, or every week! Go to www.jfaweb.org/register and select “Encouragement for Conversations.”